Curse

NerfHerder · Nov 26, 2010, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I resurected an old thread but realized this issue is deeper than that. So I made a new one.

The issue that bugs me most is how Heros, Henchmen, and even Spirits affect Minions. Heros and Henchmen seem to waste energy and skills healing Minions, when most of the time we want them to die, in order to trigger Death Nova or Jagged Bones. A Rts defensive Spirits die almost immediatly if you have a Minion army. I dont like that.

I suggest handing full control of Minions to Necromancers only. Make it so only Necromancers can be the only ally that can influence Minions. I'm not sure how intensive it would be to change this, but one way might be by changing their ally status. If Minions where given a special ally status that may fix this issue. Keep in mind, skills like "Go for the Eyes!" or "Fall Back!" may or may not trigger after these changes.

The other work around might be changing how H/H and Spirits affect just minions. That may require modifing H/H AI and Spirit mechanics. Regardless of how it gets done, the goal is to reduce H/H and Spirit waste on Minions

jazilla · Nov 26, 2010, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Sometimes I get annoyed by exactly the same problem you are talking about. Other times though, I want a minion army to take the focus off of my team. And still, other times I wish that I could be as efficient at using minions as NPC's but it isn't possible unless we had a "Party panel" for minions and spirits.

i would sign this but then it would get rid of my heroes controlling a minion army and i like a minion army sometimes.

Skye Marin · Nov 26, 2010, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Almost all large-area ally skills, like Union, Shelter, and all Nature rituals have a non-Spirit clause. Changing it to non-summoned creature clause might slightly improve these in some cases, but not in others.

Sometimes you want minions to die fast, and sometimes you want them to be better meat shields. The AI can't be set to change depending on your intention at a given moment. The only 'simple' blanket change I would suggest is to have heroes not cast targeted healing spells on minions when they are above 50% health.

At the end of the day, I think the development effort would be better spent elsewhere.

gremlin · Nov 26, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36

With respect to the op "we" do not usually want the minions to die with death nova or similar.
Having a bunch of long lasting though low damage minions holding the enemies in place and letting them waste loads of spells is often good.

But I take your point and given we will soon have hero parties it may well become very convenient if not essential to alter they way they can be healed.

Since they are dead heal shouldn't work anyway and the healers in the game don't keep spamming heal on dead party members.
I guess if they altered it so they showed as dead the ai healers would keep trying to res them.

You could alter death nova so it kills an ally rather than an if it dies within x time.
There are skills that destroy spirits that are a positive die in x seconds

Possibly this is more complicated than we think.

Spiritz · Nov 26, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

The way i read the problem and yes even had it myself is how the npcs/h/h are programed to react.Eg monks are programmed to heal ( usually npcs heal anyone ) and minions it may see as being an ally.My logic behind this is easily explained - skills usually require an ally or self target and a monk will see a minion as an ally and attempt to heal.Changing this may cause a lot of bugs and problems as we ourselves can target a minion and probably uses a similar code/routine when we go to cast.Change the skill and problems arise for each npc/etc that uses the skill as well as players.
One thing i hate real bad is death nova and anet should add a clause to it - i hate it when my mm decides i need death nova when my hp falls to 95% - am i suddenly going to drop dead ?

Gremlin - if death nova killed an ally id be bloody dead most of the time from it lol

RedStar · Nov 26, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Yes it may be annoying when your hero casts Protective Spirit on a minion, or tries to heal it. But I've never wiped because of it.
I think heroes have priorities and so if your party doesn't need to be healed, they are going to heal anything they can.

The only annoying moment I can think of is in Arborstone where Mhenlo won't approach the door because he absolutely wants to heal minions. (Similar things can happen in other missions).

On death nova : no instant death...no one in your team can be a spirit. And even if it affected only minions, the heroes won't know how to properly use it.

dracolysis · Nov 27, 2010, 09:06 AM // 09:06

I agree with the rit spirits dying with minions, but I don't notice any significant negative impact from heroes healing the minions.

They usually end up dying anyway, triggering death nova.

Also, I like some non-necro skills working on minions: Dwayna's Sorrow, Ancestor's Rage, Fall Back, etc.

Anakita Snakecharm · Nov 27, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

I've had a problem with Ritualist heroes wasting Splinter Weapon on low level minions when the spell would be a lot more useful on... well, pretty much anyone else. While that alone has never caused a wipe for me, it's a noticeable waste of energy resources.

I do think there's some ally-target priority in hero casting, but I don't think it's quite enough.

FoxBat · Nov 27, 2010, 04:44 PM // 16:44

The splinter-on-minions thing was a specific intentional change added to notes. It's new and wasn't around before.

As mentioned as far as I've seen, in general H/H only heal minions (and pets) when their energy is near full. You can watch mehnlo spam WoH on minions in downtime, but he does NOT go through the whole routine of healing breeze, kiss etc. because after a single WoH, his energy isn't maxed out and he waits for it to max before firing the next minion heal. Other players and allies get priority otherwise.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 02, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Nowai. Healing minions in PvP makes me supercool. Besides, I really dont see the problem here because as what FoxBat says is true. The henchmen only heal the minions if they have a full energy bar and there is no priority to heal other party members.
As for the spirits, they are quite strong as they are and changing this effect would only make them stronger.
Besides, dwayna's sorrow is pretty much made for minions. And skills like fall back are really nice with minions. (I understand necros can use these skills too...)

Just Sai · Dec 05, 2010, 08:48 PM // 20:48

huge sign to disallow hench ai healing of ALL MINIONS!!
seriously ive just watched mhenlo stand knee deep in fire spam healing a minion while half the party is dead

the hench ai wont res anyone until it has nothing else to do, wtf is up with that? spam orison on a minion/himself while theres dead front liner humans.

hench monk AI is seriously broken and in huge need of dire attention
at least prioritize resurrection of human players over spamming orison until the remaining party is dead

Smarty · Dec 06, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

I would love it if Mhenlo and Togo's AI (and Danika come to think of it) could be altered to stop them spamming Orison of Healing on a random minion instead of keeping up with the party and progressing the mission dialogue. Other than that, I'm sure the heroes/hench do waste their energy on minions but I haven't noticed it enough to be bothered by it.

Bellatrixa · Dec 06, 2010, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

I would love it if Mhenlo and Togo's AI (and Danika come to think of it) could be altered to stop them spamming Orison of Healing on a random minion instead of keeping up with the party and progressing the mission dialogue.

^ this. I got VERY frustrated with Vizunah Square as Mhenlo decided it was more important to heal the minions rather than actually keep up with Togo. I think it was my second run in an attempt to get Masters where Mhenlo had been left so far behind after doing his healing spam of minions that I had to run back and get him, then refused to move because Togo wouldn't run back with me... It's not the first time he's given it priority over actually healing the rest of the party either. If I have minions with me (which I generally do), he always seems to lag at the back healing them. I think it's the main reason I won't take him as a healer henchie and take Lina/Redemptor Karl/anyone who isn't Mhenlo.

NerfHerder · Dec 06, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Maybe just change H/H AI to not heal minions unless they have a specific skill like blood of the master. That way you could still micro it if your intent on healing a minion. But, I may be biased. I feel healing minions is like bringing in a disposable lighter for repair.

EDIT: It wont let me do it, but the title of this thread should probably be changed to something like: Minions: Spirits, H/H, and AI interaction or Stop Healing My Minions! To better reflect the goal of this thread. Catchy thread titles are not my forte.

Mac_Eanruig · Dec 06, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Personaly the 10 minion cap IMO is right on for PvP.....
but i'd love to see it go back up for PvE. To say 15.

Roen · Dec 06, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

If death nova effected other minions but no other allies...imagine death nova on 10 minions and one triggering the other 9 and all 10 death novas going off at once.

I know...never happen. But that would be a cool cluster bomb spike.

Lanier · Dec 06, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I personally want my minions to last as long as possible. Therefore, I want them to be at as high a health as possible prior to the battle. Therefore, im perfectly fine with my monks healing them outside of battle. They dont use up much energy doing so, and they dont heal the minions during battles, so I like the minion system just the way it is.

Bodock · Dec 07, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03

how about make it where the healers don't stop, when the player is actively running, to heal. give them a shorter leash

I was running somewhere using fallback and incoming, and my group got too close to a monster and one of my H/H got hexed and nuked a little bit.

Menlo stops to remove the hex and heal the henchman and gets totally owned and dies.

Meanwhile I am over an agro bubble away from menlo.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 08, 2010, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

I would love it if Mhenlo and Togo's AI (and Danika come to think of it) could be altered to stop them spamming Orison of Healing on a random minion instead of keeping up with the party and progressing the mission dialogue. Other than that, I'm sure the heroes/hench do waste their energy on minions but I haven't noticed it enough to be bothered by it.

That's quite smart actually. I agree.